About five years ago, developers from the Jablonec company Devinn were enthusiastic about hydrogen engines. While countries such as Germany and Italy had already invested in such drives at that time, several experts in the Czech Republic were talking about hydrogen cars.
Yesterday's front-page mentionand today an extensive interview on page 12 of Hospodářské noviny. Editor Kateřina Frouzová asked our founder and CEO Luboš Hajský about our H2BASE hydrogen generator, our involvement at the Rock for People festivalbut also how he sees the next few years of hydrogen energy.As with yesterday's article, we negotiated with the editors to publish the interview without the need for subscription. The article is originally available here for 19 CZK or for subscribers.
About five years ago, developers from the Jablonec company Devinn were enthusiastic about hydrogen engines. While countries such as Germany and Italy had already invested in such drives at that time, several experts in the Czech Republic were talking about hydrogen cars. Devinn, however, had experience with electric cars, used them, and a few years later, Luboš Hajský, the head of the company, is standing in one of the few hydrogen-powered houses. The energy is supplied by their mobile power supply, which fits in a van. According to Hajský, they can even make a truck or bus run on hydrogen. They are already working on one of these, and claim that within three years the first hydrogen Tatra will be driving around the Czech Republic.
HN: A year ago you announced that you had developed a mobile power source based on a hydrogen fuel cell. The device is called H2BASE. Now you've tested it at the Rock for People festival, where it powered a stage. How did it work?
At the festival in Hradec we had only one problem - when we changed the hydrogen tank, the fuel cell did not jump. The end user didn't recognize it and we managed to solve it. It was not the first case of real use. At the beginning of the summer we used it to power a catering event in Brno. At such events we pick up flies and we want to show people that it doesn't smell, it doesn't hum, it's just clean energy. We also went to Mikulčice after the tornado to power a school and two households. It was a different principle and a wiring check on the old wiring. That's valuable data for us to be able to make the power supply fault tolerant and for anyone to use it.
HN: What would you compare the device to? Is it something like a diesel generator?
That's right. It's a smart central, but it uses hydrogen as fuel instead of diesel. It's also got a battery in it to cover the current spikes. The only emission is humidified air and distilled water. A single pallet of hydrogen could power a typical household for about a month.
HN: But compared to diesel energy sources, is the price of such devices high?
Our equipment is in the zero series phase and is therefore ten to twelve times more expensive than a conventional diesel central station. A diesel unit is incomparably more complex than a hydrogen solution, and the guts of a diesel-electric unit contain a large number of components, wear and tear, parts and operating fluids have to be changed. The efficiency of this system is only around 30 percent. In contrast, the fuel cells we use have an efficiency of 50 to 60 per cent and are mechanically much simpler. The hydrogen fuel cell is expected to be significantly cheaper as it becomes more widespread. There is no oil change, nothing spins, nothing is destroyed. The lifetime of a fuel cell is about 25 to 30 thousand operating hours and then it has to be cleaned. A diesel engine has to be overhauled after about five thousand hours. That's a huge difference.
HN: When will you go to market with it?
We're already offering it for real. The price depends on the configuration, starting at 200,000 euros. We're testing the hydrogen pressure vessels against, for example, dropping or puncture. It takes six months to manufacture the device, we use a fuel cell from a foreign manufacturer and it takes four to five months to deliver it. We need a month or two to recover and test the product. The H2BASE is based on three Euro pallets, each 120 centimetres by 80 centimetres, so that it can be transported by pallet truck or loaded into a van. Each of the three pallets has a different function, and by adding more we can multiply the power and capacity, or shuttle hydrogen from the filling station.
HN: In the case of hydrogen, experts say that it will be used mainly in long-distance transport and in large cars. Do you see it the same way?
Yes. The bigger the vehicle, the more it makes sense. We can put a hydrogen engine, the guts of H2BASE, into any vehicle. Let me give you an example. Here in the Czech Republic, we have managed to establish cooperation with Tatra, we have started a joint project and we are working on a prototype.
HN: Hydrogen Tatras?
Yes. The company is used to diesel only and this is a big step for them. In three years, Tatra will be running on hydrogen.
HN: Are there large hydrogen trucks in the world?
They exist. However, these are machines for transport, not for heavy industry like the Tatra. There is no such thing as a heavy hydrogen vehicle.
HN: People talk about hydrogen as a clean energy source, but it is not 100% true. The production of hydrogen consumes a lot of electricity and produces CO2.
We can produce hydrogen without CO2 emissions. It is common in the West. If I get hydrogen by electrolysis from water and the electricity is from photovoltaics or wind power, I have a completely emission-free footprint.
HN: CO2 is a waste if hydrogen is produced from natural gas, which is cheap and still common.
Yes. It's very cheap. But there are filters that will trap the CO2. But I think that within a year, emission-free hydrogen will be here and that will solve it. There will be a big difference in how we look at energy today and how we will look at it ten years from now.
HN: But will hydrogen production really be solved in the foreseeable future? In the meantime, CO2 emissions are increasing. It's just that we don't see the exhaust like we do with a normal car.
Currently, the Czech chemical industry produces various products and the waste is often hydrogen, which is emitted into the air. Either we release it or boats, trucks or cars run on it. This will be a huge opportunity for many companies. They are already working on it, and if they can clean up the hydrogen from industrial production, it will be usable.
HN: Where else besides transport could the hydrogen aggregate be used?
In many places. For example, our headquarters in Jablonec nad Nisou is already occasionally supplied with electricity from hydrogen. We buy this gas for the time being, but we want to start producing it ourselves with the help of photovoltaics on the roof. There are not many buildings like that in the world yet.
HN: By the way. What kind of drive do you use?
Diesel.
HN: Why?
Convenience and time wins. In the company we try to follow the trend of electromobility, for example in Mladá Boleslav we have built fast chargers. However, the availability of infrastructure in the Czech Republic is not yet what I would have imagined, and a diesel car is still more convenient. Plus, I'm a lover of internal combustion engines.
HN: At the same time, your company gives the impression that its goal is to eliminate the internal combustion engine.
I am not convinced that the development will go in one direction. There will be an energy mix and the market will show how it will work out.
HN: Why do you think internal combustion engines will continue to be here? What is so special about them?
Diesel and petrol are great fuels, they concentrate huge amounts of energy in small amounts and we are used to using them. Moreover, the state also benefits from this. You and I are worried about change, change is worry. But the fact that oil will run out is a mathematical certainty. The only question is when. Then other sources of energy will replace it. Plus the infrastructure for internal combustion engine cars has been around for a long time and has been paid for hundreds of times over. For electric and hydrogen cars, the necessary facilities are lacking.
HN: Are sources like electricity or hydrogen not convenient enough?
It's getting very close. Electromobility is fine, but what bothers us is charging. It takes time to transfer power to the car battery. People don't want to linger and spend their lives in line. But if someone can plan their trips and always charge at home overnight, it's a perfectly fine vehicle. I've lived with it, driven it, and it's great. Hydrogen is fine, it's fill time is very close to internal combustion engines. It can be made anywhere and is renewable. But it's still not as practical as gasoline and diesel. If we press a kilo of hydrogen to 750 bar, which is the pressure level in cars, it is still almost the size of a ten-kilogram propane bottle (which is about 30 cm in diameter and 60 cm high, ed.). That is bulky.
HN: How many kilometres does one bottle last?
It depends on the fuel consumption, but it can be driven for about a hundred kilometres.
HN: It's basically an electric car that produces its own energy from hydrogen.
That's exactly his advantage. The car companies can keep 90 percent of the technology, keep the engine, keep the control electronics, just shrink the battery to a tenth and the fuel cell will feed that.
HN: How much does it cost to run a hydrogen car?
The price of hydrogen in the future should be the same or very similar to what people pay to run a diesel internal combustion engine. In Europe, a kilogram of hydrogen is expected to cost nine euros. Running an electric car is cheaper. The question remains, however, of the excise duty on the 'mobile' kilowatt-hour.
HN: But without EU pressure, such changes would probably not have happened?
I'm sure they would have, at least when the diesel ran out. But it would come much later.
HN: Are state incentives in this area sufficient? Should the Czech Republic start supporting the purchase of electric or hydrogen cars, which are expensive for ordinary Czech customers?
Under the Green Deal, which the Czech Republic has signed up to, this is a future that will not pass us by. It is now up to the government to decide how painful it will be. If nothing happens, we will pay huge fines. I am terribly afraid, however, that when the time comes when we have to comply with the agreement, there will be no one in the Czech Republic who will be able to offer a product that meets the ideal parameters. The state will introduce subsidies for purchases, and then the redistributed EU subsidies will go somewhere in the West, where they are already working on it and where it works. We have a solution and we have a two or three year head start on the competition, but our capacity will probably be bought out by a Western company that realises this. And then they will sell our product with their own added value back to us in the Czech Republic.
HN: What should the state do differently?
It could do more to support Czech innovative companies. For example, Ústí nad Labem already buys hydrogen buses, but it does not buy them in the Czech Republic. So the money goes abroad, where the companies are already ready. When we wake up here, we will say that we do not have it here and we will buy hydrogen cars from the West. We compete for subsidies and contracts, we put a lot of energy into it, but the result is not great. I can imagine that the purchase of buses could have been made with the participation of Czech companies. We are able, with our partners, to build a hydrogen bus in a year and test it for another year.
Do you get your enquiries from abroad?
We have a product that is competitive in Europe, but we have not yet been able to implement it on the Czech market. At the moment there is no investor who would buy it and continue to use it. There is no state support for it, but this will change in the near future.
HN: The state spends tens of billions annually on development and innovation. That's not too little.
It's not. But abroad they approach it differently. Five years ago, for example, we were in Berlin, where the Germans, French and Italians were presenting their strategies. They showed a map showing where they envisage hydrogen refuelling stations on motorways, how much money they will put into it, how much they will give to manufacturers to make hydrogen cars, how much money they will give for refuelling stations by the water, or how much money they will give to manufacturers for hydrogen ships. They made strategic decisions at the time and said that's the way it's going to be. In our country, we have seen a number of projects that we thought were beneficial but were not supported. By contrast, many 'monuments to science' then receive subsidies and end up in a drawer. Sometimes a lot of money is put into development that is not linked to the final producer.
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